China, China, China.

There was one word I didn’t use in my blog last week. That word was “China.” One commenter brought this to my attention in no uncertain terms. “Well, interesting story Robert, but like so many have said - CHINA, CHINA, CHINA !!”

In my piece that wasn’t about the SkyCatcher being built in China (click here if you haven’t seen it) I was simply explaining why airplanes cost as much as they do and in the process used the SkyCatcher, Cessna’s two-seat LSA trainer, as the example to make my point.

Yet despite the fact that I didn't mention the China connection, a large percentage of the replies to my piece were all about that fact. People clearly want to discuss it.

Several respondents were upset that SkyCatcher production was being outsourced at a time when American jobs are being lost en masse. One said, “My one and only complaint is that no one . . . talks about where the 162 is built. The last time I heard it was being built in China at the same time that Cessna was having massive layoffs in Wichita. I don't care about all the usual excuses, that just isn't right.” For some readers, the question was one of national loyalty and pride. “I would never buy this airplane,” one reader said. “Made in China - forget it. Cessna lays off so many Americans and then moves construction of the 162 to China - COME ON! Forget it, you could sell it for $50,000 and I'd still say NO THANKS!”

Several commenters saw a more complex picture. “The whole China/US made argument boils down to "how much extra are you willing to pay to support someone whose product or efforts cost more?" It plays out everywhere, such as in anti-WalMart campaigns. Here at our home airport, the FBO, run by a neighbor, sells gas that generally runs $.45/gallon higher than a vendor only a few miles away. Should I cough up the extra $25 or more per fill-up to support him? Or should I go with free enterprise, which has provided us with our fantastic lifestyle? What would you do?”

A friend and a longtime aviation manufacturing professional posted that, “After spending that last 16-plus years witnessing and being part of a certification process the cost of building a new aircraft is beyond comprehension. I understand why Cessna is building in China but it does not make it any less frustrating to see a once all American industry being exported.”

Yet another reader pointed out that Cessna doesn’t need to be in the training market at all. “Cessna could make lots more money just selling their highly successful jets but instead put lots of time and money into re-starting the flight training market. They want more pilots and they want them starting in Cessnas. These guys are very savvy and know what they are doing; the Skycatcher will succeed marvelously.”

Finally, one commenter made a point that was dear to all of hearts whether we support Cessna’s decision to build the airplane in China or not: He said, “Personally, I don’t care where the 162 is built. My Ford Focus is built in Mexico, my Ford Crown Victoria in Canada. So that’s the fact of today’s international world. What really worries me is that young kids are not getting into aviation at all."

I strongly agree with his last point. Regardless of where it’s built, the SkyCatcher is a step in the direction of reversing that alarming trend.

Comments

[Dave]

I would not be caught dead in an airplane made in China.

[David Reinhart]

Neither Canada or Mexico is a repressive Communist regime with nuclear tipped missles pointed at us. Not to mention an unfair monetary policy, a history of dangerous products and a shameful environmental record. I would have far less grief with the Skycatcher if it were produced almost anywhere else in the world, the two most notable exceptions being North Korea and Cuba.

[Duane Morris]

The most alarming trend in aviation from my personal perspective is outsourcing to foreign countries. I have worked for a major aircraft manufacturer for 30+ years and have seen first hand the 'quality deficient' workmanship of parts coming back to us in American factories to build an aircraft with. If your Ford Focus has a problem due to a substandard part made in a foreign country you may just coast to the side of the road and call AAA. If a substandard aircraft part gets installed and flown it could be catastophic!

Regarding 'nobody learning to fly anymore'.... I have been responsible for close to a dozen 'new pilots' entering aviation over the past 38 years. One of my greatest loves is to show someone the wonders of flying for the first time. If more pilots would do that our numbers would make a huge jump. I agree kids these days are not hanging out at the airport like we did 40 years ago. TV, internet, Wii games, etc all occupy for their time. The interest is still there, it just needs cultivated nurtured. Maybe pilots could take time to talk to a junior high science class or math class? These kids need to know a 'good reason' to be able to do the story problem of the train leaving the station....My wife has taught school almost as long as I've been flying and she finds her students much more receptive to learning when they can see a reason for it. Thanks for letting me air my concerns and ideas.

[Duane Morris]

I forgot in my last posting that my job of 30+ years with this 'major aircraft manufacturer' is being lost to Mexico!
That leaves a great taste in your mouth for a foreign made airplane. I agree with the last post about China's oppression of their people...that just adds insult to injury. Let's you know right up front what the CEO's of airplane companies think of the peons.

[C Fred Crawmer]

Regarding quality products from China, remember when really cheap toys from Japan were made from recyled beer cans....then Japan heard from consumers, embraced Edwards Demming's teachings & look what quality improvement did for its ecomony, & to ours!! Tis a shame the Flycatcher won't be manufactured in the USA but what's new about that?! Lots of seavans containing imported Chinese made goods return to China with machine tools made & formerly used in the US. And that's a political issue that's very complex & has been going on for decades. What I can't understand is the cost of the newest Cessna, as Chinese labor is very low yet its price close to comparable LSA's....after all, shouldn't it be sold @ Walmarts @ "a price that can't be beat?!"

[Paul Ryder]

Curious mind looking for an answer.

Where are all the wonderful new avionics (glass panels) made?
Garmin?
Avidyne?
Dynon?
Bendix?
L3?
Others?

Are we upset with the final assembler or should we look at the individual parts suppliers?

[Caleb Jahn]

I think we need to take emotions out of our thinking when it comes to this subject. I implore you to pick up anything in you house 80% to 90% of the time it is going to be made in China. Americans have began to feel entitled, in the aviation industry this has lead to the over inflated wages. When unions have the power to renegotiate wages every few years and the power to stop production (crippling a company if demands aren't met), you get a workforce that thinks they deserve a raise, when in the rest of the business world you have to earn a raise through hard work and showing initiative. Think about it, people in China are willing to work for a price that makes it cost effective to build it over there, then ship it to the U.S., and it is cheaper than paying to have it built over here. Like other articles have pointed out economics is what pushes these decisions, if you want to only buy American then don't complain about the price (and you will be paying higher prices).

[Wendell Driver]

I never thought I would see the day when a very Popular AMERICAN aircraft co. would contract out to a foreign nation to build an aircraft...especially China.. But then, it doesn't surprise me ,what with all the selling out this country does..we must realize however,, not to piss off the Chinese , because we all might be running about naked ,seeing that ALL of our clothing comes mostly from China...Clyde Cessna must be turning over in his grave.....

[r. Sheridan]

It is very short-sighted to:
1. transfer know-how and technology to an enemy of the United States. (Don't think China's an enemy--read some of the publicly available war planning docs from the Pentagon)
2. every dollar spent on China is a dollar in our one sided trade account balance, which is funded by--yes--the Chinese who are the largest buyers of US debt financing. Buying from China=giving China power over our financial markets
3. Why not, as another writer said, work with Mexico, India or another country that is at least a democracy and not an enemy if you really have to go offshore (something I remain utterly unconvinced about). There are other excellent LSAs from "high cost" countries (Tecnam, example) being made in *ITALY*
4. We are teaching them to compete with us. Boeing and Airbus are about to find out the fruit of their technology transfers to China as it builds a jet (due out in two years) that will directly compete against the smaller capacity 737 and Airbus. Cessna can expect to be hollowed out by cheaper chinese single engine, then jets.
5. Pelton: Tell this to the unemployed in Witchita. Cessna has plastered their propoganda that "Flying is Good for America" and that it creates jobs. Oh, ya? Tell that to the workers in Witchita as you show off your wife's shiny new Chinese-made Skycatcher.

[Nick Sywyk]

It's always back to the Unions fault that things are outsourced and not to the real reason which is profit at the top. Because of the deplorable conditions in manufacturing and treatment of employees, the union was established to protect the worker. So now Cessna will be manufactured in a country that has no worker protection and very poor quality control. I have flown every type of aircraft Cessna has made and most of the other manufactures, with chinas reliability in question I will hesitate to fly in something they produce. You can fly cheap or fly safe!!

[Mike]

I ordered the ICON, 139,000.00 bucks and american made. It's worth the price difference. I'll laugh at the Skycatcher when I see it on the ramp. I would never ever actually get in one.

[Caleb Jahn]

You are right the Unions were established to protect the worker, in the early 1900's. Now the government has put into effect so many labor laws that a union isn't needed anymore. Unlike toys and electronics airplanes are still built to FAA standards, and they are inspected just like in the US.

[Rick Beekman]

As far as no new pilot's. I don't know ANYONE at all who can, or could ever hope to, be able to AFFORD to fly! Either to start flying or continue flying. It simply is NOT AFFORDABLE for the masses anymore. Of everyone I have know who use to own their own planes and fly regularly, or rent and fly regularly, more than 30 people, including myself, not one of us flies at all anymore....it has just gotten so expensive that we simply cannot afford it at all anymore! Never mind the magazines that continuely "push"..."Affordable Flying"...yeah, for the wealthy. My income is the highest it has ever been in my life, and that is still far less that even being able to consider having any more left over at the end of the paycheck, (and we don't have a lot of stuff, and a tiny house), to fly.

[Jim]

I have a plant in China where we manufacture plastic and metal parts to support American companies. I went to China because my customers would talk all day about American made, but buy on price. The quality in China is as good as you specify, demand and monitor. In our experience the quality issues are usually because of poor specifications or unreasonable cost targets forced on the Chinese factories.
The real problem is not the American unions, it is the total package of wages, mandated benefits, and taxes that drive work to areas where the cost of labor is low. Although the low labor is partially offset by shipping and the expense of sending people to Asia, for high labor content and high volume work it still can be very cost effective when compared to our domestic costs. I don't like it, but that's how the numbers work.

Personally, I would love to go back to domestic manufacturing. We need to reduce the cost of doing business domestically AND give incentives to domestic manufacturing and purchasing. Let's put a time limit on welfare so that people must get a job. Maybe the average wage cost in manufacturing could drop significantly. Cut off the mandated benefits and the cost will go down more.

We COULD do cost effective manufacturing in this country. We choose to tax ourselves highly, demand high wages, and in general when we go to the store we buy by cost rather than country of manufacture.

We have demanded our politicians give us government handouts without thinking about where that money comes from. We are devastating our middle working class, and then blaming everyone else.

The conspiracy theory about 'excess greedy profits' is just silly. Except for the oil companies and Wall Street bankers our companies are not making obscene profits.

The next time you want to ask 'why is that product manufactured in China?', take a look in a mirror and think about that question the next time you vote. If you don't vote, shame on you and don't bother complaining to those of us who are trying to get the politicians back on track.

[bones]

I guess if I were trying to rationalalize using Chinese factories to make my products, I would blame the process on somebody else, like the polititions. Don't get me wrong, our Congress if full of folks that seem to have no idea about how economies work. But China? Like someone else mentioned, They are planning war with us. They constantly try to invade our computer systems, they are dumping into our economy, they refuse to allow their monetary values to float by actual value,and they own our debt (yeah, I know, the polititions again).

If there were no other countries with an educated, underpaid population for you to abuse, I guess it would make some sense. That's obviously not the case. When there are no Americans around who can buy your products, I hope you remember your above note, Bubba.

[Stuart C. Ashley]

I have not read all the posts, but I would wager this is not discussed: The root cause of the exporting of our manufacturing and manufacturing jobs overseas should be more understood. Cost of labor is one thing that comes first to mind. But the other burdens under which American manufacturers work should be more fully recognized.
1. Corporate income tax: 49% here (I think), 0% elsewhere.
2. Property tax: applies in USA, 0 elsewhere.
3. Legal costs (liability): high here, low elsewhere.
4. Environmental costs: high here, low elsewhere.
5. Fringe benefits: high here, low elsewhere.
If we don't understand the totality of the problem, we are not likely to start working on it, we'll just do some more griping about it and let it go at that. I happen to think manufacturing jobs are important. They are more important than service jobs. Why? Because you can't export service. The balance of payments problem in this country is horrible. We don't export nearly as much as we import. On a national level, this is a formula for going broke. Anyone noticed recently, we're going broke, ever more efficiently? So instead of worrying about why the Skycatcher is built in China [It was built in China, because it makes economic sense.], let's worry about the big picture. Fix the big picture, and you won't have to worry about microscopic Skycatcher problems.

[bones]

I completely agree with everything Stuart says, but until we have the political will to change the status quo, it seems we'll export jobs and import debt. My comment has more to do with where the jobs are going. Personally, I prefer to be supportive of democratic regimes rather than those bent on our demise and/or capitulation. Then work on exporting our Congress.

[Jon]

The political landscape of this country has transformed greatly over the past 50 years from one that welcomes free enterprise and ingenuity to one of exploitation and social equality. The result of this is high taxes, bloated unions, huge government regulations and slim profit margins (which will be taxed again). It is no wonder that we have a 10.2% unemployment rate.

That being said, I'll eat my hat the day I fly an airplane built in China. Up to the announcement of the factory location for the 162, I was a die-hard Cessna man. I'm now a Ford-loving, Cirrus driver. Buy American.

[Michele]

Am I the only one who finds it more than slightly ironic that amid this whole discussion on outsourcing, it seems that Flying Magazine is owned by one "Hachette Fililacchi Media US", which is a subsidiary of Hachette Fililacchi, SA, a French company. Oh wait, it says here that in May 2009 Flying was sold to the Bonnier Group - a Swedish company.

[David V]

So all of those who are mad at Cessna for building their bottom of the line aircraft in China, how do you feel about Piper and their entire line of aircraft being owned by Imprimis, a completely foreign owned company funded by the Sultan of Brunei? But I guess you don't care what sort of firm or individual owns Piper as long as all the good ol' boy jobs are safe.

[testriderchuck]

To add to Duane's comment, It used to be possible to go to the local airport and walk around the aircraft, look, touch, walk up to somebody by their bird and chat, whatever. Now all the airport's are surrounded by 6' chain link fences. Airports have been legislated into hostility. Take Deer Park, WA. the easiest way to get onto the airport is by air, it's surrounded by a fence and there's no building with a door you can walk into and talk to someone, and no posted phone # that I've seen to call if you want to fly.

Speaking about expense, you have to know 3 things to get your license. 1. the regulations concerned. 2. the airspace you'll be in, and as an afterthought you should know how to fly the airplane. In that order in the FAR's. Don't you think a pilot should be more concerned about his flying skills than the reg's? I do. I've spent almost $10K and don't have the private yet, and am unable to get any more funding from the "go-back-to-college-and-get-educated" government. I've spent more time trying to learn the applicable reg's than actually flying and I dont know them well enough yet. Thanks FAA.

[bones]

Simple answer guys, vote the bastards out. We're killing our own economy and freedom.

[Bill]

The comment: "taking a step in the right direction" is relateve. If Americans aren't employed because jobs are being exported, then they won't be able to pay for, maintain, or learn to fly an airplane anyway. Nobody wins.

[Denny]

As a businessman and a long time pilot of over thirty years I can understand both sides of this problem. However a company's bottom line does not make it a total sucessfull company. I don't care if Piper is owned by a forgien company or not, the jobs are here in this country and the profits (if any) is being shipped overseas. The aircrafts are still being made in this country with our labor. I have in the past owned a 170, 172, 182 and a 210T. I would find it hard pressed to buy probably my last aircraft (which would probably be a 310) from Cessna if they decide to move their manufacturing of any aircraft from the USA. If that actually happend then I guess a Barron is in my future.

[Nicholas F. Pipitone]

In reading many of the posts, they all make great points from taxes, unions, and the mentality of this congress. Why are there so many layoffs at Cessna Wichita? What are the hourly wages and benefits. What are the union demands for retirement and medical care programs. One only has to look at the U.S. Auto industry to answer these questions. Then add the corporate taxes, liability expenses and the 'Big Picture" becomes clearer. At one point in time, we were told that 70% of the cost of an aircraft is liability. (lawyers. Frivolous law suits brought on by incompetent individuals and a good lawyer going after the "deep pocket". Unfortunately, we have brought much of this upon ourselves. This congress pushes back on tort refom. Why, after all, what is the make up of congress? lawyers !

Unions have their place but have grown too strong. If we refuse to purchase chinese produced products, if we agree to boycott Chinese produced products, change will occur, eventually. Check the label, then put it back on the shelf. If its a Cessna made in China (Chissna, go elsewhere. I don't trust the quality of assurance in much of the Chinese made products especially a LSA. In short, reduce the cost of producing the product while maintaining safety and reliability, bring manufacturing back to the U.S. A. so that " Made In America By Americans" means something again.