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Comments

Richard Pickett

Aviation accidents will always be sensational. It is the nature of the beast. When an airliner with 300 souls on board crashes, it makes headlines for weeks all over the world.

However, 300 people in the USA die on the highways on a holiday weekend and it is barely noted by the media. Nothing will change this. We as pilots must help educate our non-flying friends to understand and put this tragedy in perspective.

If anything can be learned from this incident, putting noise concerns about the helicopters over safety, and placing all rotary and fixed wing aircraft at the same altitude and airspace will inevitably end up in disaster, as happened.

Nevertheless, once the dust clears, cool heads should work together to formulate some rules to prevent an incident like this from happening again.

Joyce A Shopinsky

I have been flying for eight years and have flown the New York Corridor both in the daytime and at night. I feel safer in the air then driving my car. Flying is a freedom that we as pilots take very seriously. This was an unfortunate accident and my thoughts and prayers go out to the families.

Chris Front

Your H&M Sponsor's advertisement is blocking the article -- Unable to read it.

Dr. Kenneth Nolde

In past (when we lived in Maryland) my wife and I flew the Hudson many times, including the last trip in 2001, a week before 9/11 andwe have pictures of waving people on the Twin Towers. We never had a problem monitoring appropriate frequencies and paying attention rewarded us (and the occasional passenger) with a glorious experience.

I do feel sad about the loss of life, but I, for one, believe the system works well and no major alterations are required.

Ron Wiley

I mourn the loss of life due to this unfortunate accident. As a pilot that often flies the Class B Exclusion I am aware of how busy it can be. Last week I drove from New Jersey to Manhattan for dinner and a play. I was more concerned with my safety on the NJ Tpke. and the streets of Manhattan than I am when I fly the corridor.

Steve

My cousin Jimmy used to say: "If God had wanted man to fly, He would have given him tickets."

Greg Morgansen

I have been flying since 2000. I am now 63. In that time and in 672 hours of private pilot flight, I have had one...count it, one...close encounter. I was on flight following and had been notified that there were four aircraft maneuvering at my 12 o,clock toward meat approximately five miles. At a combined closure rate of 400 knots, it took a matter of minutes for them to come into view. The FARs stipulate oncoming aircraft to turn to the right so that each can pass to the right of each other. Three of the planes followed this rule and one turned left directly across my path at what I would judge as a quarter of a mile...pretty darned close! It passed me on the right at about 50 yards. This was a seat-cleaning episode! The plane was a newer Mooney going REALLY fast! My point is, that just as we do thoughtless things as drivers at times that threaten life and limb, so do we as pilots now and then in the face of learned procedures and the FAR. Having a media cow over the Hudson event is illogical thinking at its highest leve. Let clear heads prevail and consider how life really works.

Ed Cook

This is like revisiting the Buffalo crash. The aviation ignorant public and law makers react to something they know nothing about with ideas that don't embrace the issues. But then by saying that on this site, I am only preaching to the choir. We need to keep trying to educate the non aviation world.

B DeLaCantera

As a passenger having flown up the Hudson, we encountered private aircraft that were not announcing themselves and being called by JFK to announce themselves, with out a response by the aircraft. The trip was uneventful...but that too is an important issue when flying - listen - look and announce yourself. I agree the the media non-pilots would ultimately have to confess that they have made mistakes driving and could have been involved in a horrific event as well. I hope the FAA will continue to allow us to enjoy our wonderful country,but perhaps change the altitude for the copters doing the site seeing tours in NYC. Talking is a valuable and important issue in flying - it makes everyone aware where you are and look for you...If you are a pilot you are aware of the flight patterns in the area you are flying and the other airports and takeoff and landing approaches...so These two guys were savy pilots. My heart goes out to the family and friends of all who perished in this crash - God bless you all. "Companion Flyer"

Tom Harper

TCAS (Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance Systems), which was mandated for the airlines in the mid-80s and adopted by corporate aircraft since then, has had nn amazing track record in reducing air transport mid-airs.

Avidyne, along with Honeywell, L-3, and Garmin, make low-cost versions of TCAS (TAS – Traffic Advisory Systems) at price points starting at $9,995. Even below radar coverage as these aircraft were flying, these active-surveillance TAS systems can spot other aircraft.

Politicians and the mainstream media seem oblivious and want to implement more rules and restrictions….

Based on the facts we have (and at the risk of jumping to some conclusions should other facts come out), it seems to me that if either or both of these aircraft had a TAS on board, it would have absolutely prevented this unfortunate disaster. While ADS-B promises to make traffic advisory capability ubiquitous at some point in the future, the fact is TAS has been around for a good 10+ years and has save countless thousands of lives….And for $10,000 per aircraft, it seems like pretty cheap insurance in retrospect.

Phillip Poynor

I have to take exception with your characterization that this unfortunate accident ". . . happened in the heart of New York, the most populous city in the country".

It actually happened over the open water of the Hudson river between NYC and NJ. In fact, it could not have happened (this way) over "the heart of New York City" as the entirety of the heart of NYC (Manhattan) and much of the rest of New York City underlies class B airspace (positive control) that starts at the surface and extends to 7,000 feet.

As aviatiors, we need to be careful in the language we use in discussing accidents because the general public doesn't understand the assumptions and definitions that are included in our terms of art and jargon. Reading your article, a member of the general public might easily assume the same thing could recur at 5th Avenue and 42nd Street ("in the heart of New York City"). Simply stated, it couldn't.

I expect more clarity and precision from Flying in critical discussions such as this.

Tom

Countless Thousands of Lives???

Greg Morgansen

To say that this kind of thing could never happen in the heart of the city is a bit premature. About a year ago, in the heart of Manhattan, a prominent baseball pitcher and his experienced instructor piled a new SR-22 into the third story of a downtown apartment building. They had made a 180 degree turn from north to south over the East River just south of the baseball stadium and failed to take into account the narrowness at that point and the wind, which carried them right into downtown and into the building.

Alan B. Hoffman

I am curious as to why I was not allowed to post a comment. What are your criteria, please?

Alan B. Hoffman

We who fly must realize and accept that the airspace we use is a public resource whose use is a privilege. If we denigrate the concerns of the public and the media, even though we may not share them, we put ourselves at risk of having that privilge further limited.

It would be refreshing if responsible general aviation organizations such as GAMA, AOPA and EAA reached out proactively to the FAA and NTSB in a good faith effort to assess, and address, the risks inherent in the Hudson corridor. Doing so would be in the public interest, and the enlightened self interest of the GA community.

Ivan Klugman

Being a dual rated airline Captain and aviation consultant I feel uniquely qualified to comment.
I've flown thousands of Helicopter sightseeing and Helicopter Airline flights in the NYC area.
The Hudson River exclusion area has always been a threat. The fixed wing aircraft should not be allowed in that area. AOPA a has lobbied the FAA for years to keep it open. The bottom line is that Fixed aircraft don't have the visibility or the maneuverability to operate in the area safely.
TCAS or making the area controlled airspace is not the answer. Simply making it a Helicopter and in the near future tilt rotor corridor is the best solution.

Doug Curtis

Capt. Klugman should take a deep breath and step back, so he can see the big picture! If fixed wing and fling wing pilots start to fight over air space, we will all lose!!

Ivan Klugman

Doug,
I have the big picture. I'm aware that is a bad precedence to limit our freedoms in anyway.
When you look at the number of operations per year and that I can only recall two mid-airs involving Helos and fixed wing under the NYC TCA it's a pretty good record. Our political representatives smell blood and want to do something. So instead of doing something stupid, I'm recommending the best alternative. I live with political nonsense at the airport everyday.
By the way I'm both a Jet and Helicopter pilot so I don't want to start a feud.

Dennis Minor

Not having flown in the NY area and especially in the Hudson corridor, I must say I'm a little amazed at the lack of control or set procedure that seems to exist. I learn to fly in the LA basin out of Torrance (now Zamperini Field) and was taught from my 2nd flight on how to fly VFR in a very busy IFR environment. In particular every other flight seem to be through the Los Angeles Special Flight Rules area directly over LAX on either a NW or SE heading. While you were never under ATC control, to transition through the area there were very specific protocols in place to keep planes from flying onto each other. And if you didn't follow the rules, there was always the chance that LAX or Santa Monica tower would be listening in and watching their radars. It was a system designed by the FAA to keep the pilots in charge of being seen and be seen yet used common sense and didn't require big brother controllers to make it work.
I don't live there anymore but I see on the LA Terminal chart that it's still in use and I don't believe there's been any mid-airs. What it does require though is the common sense acceptance that when we're in the air, we have a responsibility not only to ourselves but every plane, helicopter or other flying contraptions to be seen either visually or orally. Uncontrollable accidents will happen. that's life. It's the ones that are preventable that make all pilots potential victims.

M Hettinger

It occurred to me that part of the irony in the reporting of this accident can be laid to the easily-available database information on accidents in aviation. For instance, the account I heard (or read, I don't remember), described the accident, and then, perhaps running out of interesting details, went on to say how many accidents had happened to other aircraft of the same make and some other similar "factual" information that gave an irrelevant impression of aviation danger.

Do they do this with auto accidents? Well, sometimes, but I got the impression that it was just easy to come up with a string of "related" accident data that put even more accidents on public view, even though the other incidents are considerably in the past, and not common at all.

don k. west

I agree with Ivan Klugman all the way. I'm a retired military jet and helo pilot and a retired trafficopter and fixed wing driver from the Baltimore area. Listen to people like Ivan who has seen it all and is best qualified to comment on the scene. I like his comment about political nonsense around airports. Here's to good and safe flying. Don K. West

Alan B. Hoffman

This is a most interesting debate. Mr. Minor's comment about LA suggests that with estblishment--and use--of sound operating procedures, the interests of all users can be accomodated in a complex airspace environment, without compromising safety.

From the facts which have been reported so far it appears that the Hudson Corridor event could have been avoided had the fixed wing pilot annonounced his presence and intentions on the CTAF. The issue is how to require compliance with such procedures in Class E Airspace.

Robert Goyer

It's interesting that the LAX VFR Corridor is being held up as an example of safe implementation of such airspace segments. The first person I knew to get killed in an airplane was our Cessna sales rep--my family ran an FBO--back in the mid-70s. He was killed as a result of a mid-air collision while in the Corridor. He was flying a 337 and collided with a 152. The 152 was damaged but its pilot was able to successfully execute a forced landing on the beach. Our rep died in the crash of the Skymaster. I just went back and looked through the old report. There's no mention of the Corridor, but I know that's where they were, just the boilerplate notation that the pilot failed to see and avoid other traffic.

Greg Morgansen

Are there tapes of transmissions from the chopper and the Piper?

Stephen Moore

Mr. Goyer (or anyone who might know),

I did catch it written somewhere that, from a regulations point of view, the helicopter pilot was accountable for keeping his aircraft safe as he was climbing into traffic. Is this actually the case, or is this false?

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